A Conversation Between the Artists
Art by Amir Khadar
Part of CORE's mission is to facilitate dialogue between the featured artists. Since we all live in different countries and states and could not physically meet in person, my hope was to replicate a panel style interview by having the artists contribute to the same document. I asked them to introduce themselves, respond to the questions and respond to each other as they see fit. I hope you take the time to read through their responses. (This interview took place between May 20th, 2018 and May 29th, 2018. I recently updated this interview on February 16, 2023 as one of the artists asked to have their work taken from this website.)
Amir Khadar is a non-binary, West African, multidisciplinary artist and organizer. Through their spoken word and visual art practice, Amir is able to attack issues stemming from white supremacy while celebrating intersectionality and Black beauty. Through art, they are able to practice authentic self-expression and create the images of the African diaspora that ultimately facilitate healing. Amir is currently a student at the Maryland Institute College of Art studying for their B.F.A.
Mony Maringa is a 17-year-old visual artist, photographer, and 3d animator (🇰🇪🇷🇼)
Ayomide Tejuoso is a 16-year-old Nigerian photographer based in South Africa.
Cameron Lee is a 19-year-old college student majoring in Creative Writing and minoring in Visual Art. She tends towards traditional art, although she also experiments with digital art.
Jazzmin Imani Cox-Cáceres is a 17-year-old Puerto Rican and African-American artist at Georgetown Day School. She tends to use oil and colored pencil and is very interested in portraiture, figures, and patterns. Recently she has also explored 3-D media, and it’s quite the challenge!
Question One: Do you identify as a feminist? Womanist? Or some other label? If so, why? Does this label or lack of one impact your artwork or what images you create? Do you consider your work feminist art? Womanist art? Or some other label?
Amir Khadar: I consider myself as a black feminist because I align most of the work I do with black women & black feminist theory, centering dark skinned femmes and women in my art is my priority since they are often objectified and viewed as side pieces or additives. I don’t appreciate feminism (or any activism) that isn’t intersectional, because it only further marginalizes people, and uplifts the most privileged of the underprivileged. I would adhere to any label that is anti-misogynist though because I am tired of the male gaze dominated everything. Especially the art world. We are almost unable to create without valuing a (white) male possibly looking at our work, and appreciating it. It makes everything so perverted. Being anti-marginalization is where my art stems from, and I revel in that.
Mony Maringa: I do not consider myself a feminist. I know that it isn't ideal, but I think that women and girls don't deserve “the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." This is coming from someone who believes that people misuse the term “feminism” and simply make all women look helpless in comparison to a man or boy. I am aware that there are still women and girls who are being sat on by society, and I do see the need for seeking to establish educational and professional opportunities for women that are equal to those for men. But in my life, I haven't really seen or experienced anything that would make me call myself a feminist. Funny thing is, my mum is a feminist.
Oddly enough I would classify my art under feminism, womanism, or black feminism due to the fact that I celebrate women in most of my pieces. I think it is crucial to have my work represent my society and beliefs.
It's hard for me to believe in feminism when it seems like women want to remain weak and helpless. It's repulsive and degrading. Click here to read something I wrote about feminism about two years ago. I have different opinions about it now after being exposed to the sexist and chauvinist adult world.
Ayomide Tejuoso: I identify as a feminist and have taken on this identity since the age of 13. I became a feminist when I began to analyze the way women were treated in the Lagosian (I live in Lagos, Nigeria and we call ourselves Lagosians) space, it opened my eyes to what role I have to play, to the liberation of women. Feminism has influenced most of my works. Last year until January I created mostly feminist art, exploring and deconstructing the male identity (gender and masculinity). Now I have mostly been exploring the darkness and gravity of the human mind, focusing on expressing the vulgarity of humanity and society. I would not consider myself a feminist artist anymore, for I believe it puts my art in a box. I would rather call myself an artist, an artist who transcends her art with her thoughts.
Cameron Lee: In simplest terms, identify as a feminist. To me, feminism is similar to how Mony defined it; as a movement advocating for the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes. The term “Womanism” also applies to my views of feminism because I recognize the importance of intersectionality and that, as a black woman, my position in society and my advancement might not mirror that of a white woman. My relationship with feminism was rocky at the start because I became aware of the term when many of my peers thought it was a bad thing, but I eventually came to understand it and investigate the word’s history. I completely acknowledge the historical (and contemporary) exclusion of women of color from the feminist conversation, which is why I appreciate that terms like “Womanism” and “Intersectional Feminism” exist and separate themselves from “White Feminism.”
I respectfully disagree with Mony’s point that because she hasn’t seen or experienced anything in her life to make her call herself a feminist, she doesn’t need feminism, and that because women “want to remain weak and helpless,” which is “repulsive and degrading,” feminism is hard to believe in. (I apologize if I am misquoting you.) Feminism as a concept is still meant to work towards eradicating centuries of inequality. In my personal experience, systemic, ingrained sexism permeates my life in ways that I don’t even think about on a daily basis. Rape and sexual assault legislation and procedures often turn towards victim blaming; the US, at the very least, perpetuates a rape culture that teaches men that they can virtually do anything to women and not get punished; many dress codes in schools are still blatantly sexist and assume that a girl’s bare shoulder is sexual and distracting to a boy’s education. And I’m only hitting upon a particular, very narrow part of institutional sexism, which gets worse when it is viewed intersectionality, and you begin to acknowledge the struggles of Latina women, Black women, Asian women, etc. I am also wary of when people say that women want to remain weak or helpless. I don’t know precisely what Mony means by that, but when I’ve heard people say things like that in my life, they refer to women who would rather stay at home and not have a career, or women who care a lot about how they dress, or women who are strippers or sex workers or performers who embrace their sexuality. Feminism, at least the way I see it, also exists to create space for women to do all those things without being judged. It is not anyone’s place to decide what another woman should be doing, whether that be cooking dinner for her kids every night or not getting married or having any kids. (I also want to quickly acknowledge my support of and belief in queer feminism, which recognizes that gender and sexuality are spectrums and that, for example, trans women go through life much differently from cis women, etc.)
I wouldn’t say that I set out to make “feminist art,” but I do think my feminism influences the art I create. Because I am also a writer, I tend to think a lot about the lives of my characters, and I can say with certainty that my feminism influences every woman character I write and pieces of art I create. Yes, sometimes my art is blatantly influenced by feminism as well, especially when I set out to make a piece with a message, but even if it isn’t intentional, my work is still feminist because I am a feminist and that isn't something I can turn off.
Mony: Cameron Lee, I don't see anything wrong with “women who would rather stay at home and not have a career, or women who care a lot about how they dress”. I simply have a problem with the women who make feminism a joke. Thus, I don't believe in it.
Cameron: Mony; I understand what you’re saying. I agree that it can be frustrating when another person’s behavior negatively impacts you, simply because you may be a part of the same identity, and it has been in my experience. I also recognize that you didn’t say anything about women who would rather stay at home or care about how they dress; that was just me drawing connections between how I perceive what you said and what some people have said to me in my life.
Cameron: I started out drawing women because I find their bodies much easier to draw than male bodies, but because some part of me probably wanted to incorporate myself into my work. Now, I’m more used to drawing women than men and much more comfortable with it, so drawing women has become my default.
I’m not sure I agree with your point on feminism, however. You write that women have the luxury of using their periods and maternity leave as excuses for not working as hard or for working less, but I see it as the opposite. In my experience, women are most often required to work even if they are on their periods, and they are forced to ignore whatever discomfort they are going through and pretend like nothing is wrong. A similar thing happens with maternity leave. I see paid maternity leave as something that should be required, both for the health of the baby and the mother, and often maternity leave in the US is lacking. Some countries offer new mothers years of paid leave, and the US does not. Kids are expensive. It seems like that would make it difficult to take care of a newborn and not worry about losing money. I would argue that women who have to take care of their new children work just as hard as their husbands who stay in the office during that time; it is just a different kind of work.
Jazzmin Imani Cox-Cáceres: I identify as a womanist not because I am afraid of facing the stereotypes against feminism but because I believe that history is very important in the context of a movement, and simply put, feminism was not founded to benefit women of color. While this may be how I define my support for women, I am not someone who regularly expresses that I am a womanist because I think it is important to treat womanism as a lifestyle rather than as a movement. A movement theoretically comes to an end, but fighting for equitable treatment and opportunities for women of color must stay as active as the injustice that we face, and it should be an integral part of our lives. Because of this, I don’t think that womanism impacts my art meaning I don’t have to think about making “womanist art.” On the contrary, I don’t think I could create meaningful art that doesn’t speak to my struggle as a woman of color or that uplifts women of color, therefore benefitting the fight that womanism represents. One of my goals in creating art is to specifically touch women of color. Of course, I want my art to touch everyone in different ways, but there are common themes that only women of color can truly understand. This serves as my act of everyday womanism.
Question Two: As artists/creators, do you think it is possible to separate the art from the artist? I’m curious to hear your thoughts. This question was inspired by some articles I read about six months ago following the string of sexual misconduct accusations in Hollywood. If I support someone’s work, does that mean I support all of their actions by association? Is art autonomous? Does context make the art?
Amir: I believe it is impossible as well. Artwork is so much centered around Ego and Character in modern day (which isn’t incorrect at all) but the personality of the artist is the reason their art becomes visible. Most technical skills in art can be mastered in a short span of time, and there are many artists who are creating work that fits in the same niche. The only thing unique about art pieces is essentially the creator. So when the creator is problematic, we make a specific choice to support their art practice as opposed to other artists doing similar, or more interesting things who are generally the more marginalized people.
Mony: My art is a part of me. It is easier to spill my heart in my artwork because I can see what people actually have to say without putting myself out there. I hide behind my work to keep sane. Being vulnerable isn't easy, but conveying messages through my poetry or visual art is a way for me to share my darkest thoughts without judgment from society.
Being a 17-year-old young woman isn't easy, but my art makes it better. Living in a community (Africa, Kenya) driven by morals makes it hard to discuss the painfully sweet thoughts that linger in my mind.
So my answer is NO, it isn't possible to separate one's art from themselves. I don't follow people 100%. If I like their work, then I like their work and not them as a whole. And yes, the conditions an artist goes through sometimes defines the art.
Ayomide: Art is the visual representation of the thoughts of a creative (Art is an artist). I always use this example to expand on this theory: Whenever I go to galleries, I am gripped with fear and my heart shivers in pain, this is because I believe that the artworks have spirits, spirits that are representatives of the thoughts of the artist. I believe that if an artist does something evil, no matter how beautiful their art is, I would end up hating everything they create. I don’t know why I am like this, but like the gravity of their actions frighten me enough to have disdain towards their works. But I allow one person to creep under my inclination, Fela Kuti, he killed a person when he was drunk in the 80s, but I still like his music. I think it is because Fela is a prominent figure in Nigeria, but he did some mad things.
Cameron: I struggle with this question daily, so I’m happy you brought it up. For a while, I was of the mindset that if a person did something bad, or they had problematic or offensive views, it was right for me to distance myself from their work completely. For example, I still lean away from Chris Brown’s music because of how he abused Rihanna when they were in a relationship, and how much that affected me when it happened. I was never Chris Brown’s biggest fan, however, and although his music is still somewhat a part of my life because he is extremely popular to this day, I don’t go out of my way to listen to it. This gets much more complicated and confusing when an actor or artist that I love or respect does something concerning, and I have to decide how I am going to proceed. I recently watched an interview with some of the cast of Dear White People in which they addressed this very issue, and Justin Simien, the writer/creator/producer/director, said that as humans we need to be able to hold more than one thing in our head at a time and that we have to recognize the complexity of human nature. They generally agreed that it was possible for someone to create beautiful art and still have done bad things because humans aren’t black and white and it isn’t acceptable to view them as such.
There has been a lot of talk about the author Junot Díaz recently, both because of his New Yorker article about being sexually assaulted as a child and because of the allegations of sexual misconduct against him. I have been wanting to read a Junot Díaz book for a long time, and this controversy isn’t going to stop me, but I am going to read his work much more critically than I would have before. I’m still not sure what I believe, but I think what Justin Simien said is a good thing to keep in mind because we are all very complicated and multi-faceted. At the same time, we need to make sure that we aren’t blindly protecting and defending our “faves” just because we like them or their work.
Jazzmin: Art should not be separated from the artist. This question is best answered by an artist because anyone that is truly passionate about their art understands that a piece of yourself goes into every piece you create. Not only that, but the most logical reason not to support art by an artist whose views you do not support is that any profit made by supporting the art goes straight to that artist. Of course, we are sometimes unaware of the things that this artist may have done or said, and so it is up to the viewer to decide if they want to discover those parts of the artist they may not want to share. Of course, everyone makes mistakes, and I think that the choice to continue supporting that artist or not depends on not only how serious you view their mistake to be, but also if they show signs of remorse and change. It’s not enough to be remorseful unless there is change.
***This question also made me think about the relationship between white youth in the United States and rap music and how there can be a mindlessness and disregard for the identity of the artist (i.e. it’s cool to be black when it’s entertaining but not in other spaces...this came to mind when I was watching Childish Gambino’s music video “This is America”).***
Amir: I believe that the Rap music coming from mainstream artists is what happens when black creativity is exploited for a white audience. I personally didn’t like the video by Donald Glover, for the reason I felt it portrayed trauma of black people in a way that is palatable to white people. Through my eyes as someone who has seen too many bodies who look like mine be murdered, the video was triggering. I don’t understand why I felt attacked as a black person watching a video that was supposed to be considered “peak blackness” but evoking images of minstrel shows and massacres of black folk for the entertainment of white people felt very counterproductive. I didn’t need someone to tell me what America is, but white America did, and they were willing to pay. - That’s kind of a tangent, but in relation to the question, White kids like artists who make them feel edgy, multicultural and unique. They are drawn to the perceived power. It’s why white people will endlessly crucify Azealia banks, but will still wear Kanye clothes.
Ayomide: I want to add something, I did not think Donald Glover's video commented on the idea of the black identity only being loved because they are entertaining, rather I think that the video highlighted on the idea of society being distracting. In society, we distract ourselves with media, dance, music, superficial things, but behind the scene is something so dark and evil. Behind the scene are people dying in Syria, in Gaza, in Nigeria. The reality of life is ISIS, Boko Haram, and ethnic cleansings. Behind the BTS going to the BBMAS, is death and pain. We as humans distract ourselves with superficial things because we are afraid of the reality of life. That's why I don't identify as a liberal or a conservative because they are social constructs that distract us from the struggles of life. While you complain about cultural appropriation, a village in Nigeria is being destroyed, 300 people slaughtered by the Fulani herdsmen (a classic case of ethnic cleansing). While you complain about whether or not Kanye is mad (just because he hyped your president), a child in Nigeria is having a bombed strapped to her waist and blows up a market. While the world screams Wakanda bullshit and romanticizes Africa, most people my age in Lagos can’t go to good schools...public schools in Lagos don’t even have enough chairs or tables. Let's not distract ourselves, but g that's just my opinion, we all have different interpretations of things.
Cameron: I also appreciate this question because when I think about separating an artist from their art, I never think about it in this context. I 100% believe that people are sometimes more willing to accept an artist like Gambino solely based on their music, and then reject them the second they do anything that reminds people they are black. Remember what happened after “Formation” came out? People freaked out because here Beyoncé was, blatantly addressing her blackness and culture in a way many of us hadn’t seen before.
Is there anything else you want to share? Current events? Pop culture? Or do you have any lingering questions for me or any of the artists? Do you have any music, TV shows, movies, or book suggestions?
Mony: Hi guys! I have one book suggestion, Inés of My Soul by Isabel Allende. "Tyrone" by Erykah Badu.
Ayomide: Nah g, I really like what you are doing though.
Cameron: I don’t have anything else to say right now but if I think of something I will definitely write it down! Thank you so much for this. It was great to read what everyone had to say.
Amir:
Book: Octavia’s Brood & anything by Octavia Butler.
Movies: Check It, a documentary about a gang of queer&trans black youth in DC defending each other. Click here for more information.
Show: Dear White People, season 2 especially. Black Lightning was good too.
Music: I really love Azealia Banks, Anna Wintour is a bop currently. I also love Lizzo, Solange, ThEEsatisfaction, and Erykah Badu. Erykah is my permanent fav. All of Mama’s Gun, specifically Bag Lady, Apple Tree, Kiss me on my neck & Orange moon.
I want to thank all of the artists for taking the time to participate in this project. I value all of their voices and the art they shared. If you are interested in this project and/or want to be involved in any way, please go to the "Contact" and write me (Mikala Jones) an email.